* Support lernu!
lernu is able to operate thanks to your support.

Log in

Remember me

THE DICTIONARY VORTARO*

To open the dictionary, click on the button above. You can find explanations on how to use the dictionary under "Help pages".

>“La Vortaro”Pilger: “BER”Bick: “Esperanto-dansk”>

Help: * ?

THE INSTANT MESSENGER TUJMESAĜILO*

You can use this instant messenger to chat with other lernu! users. To start the messenger, click on one of the above buttons. You can find more information under "Help Pages".

Rules * *


/ Community /

Forum

Overview / In English / How do you say "talking about" as in...
Page 1 (of 1)
New post
 Author   Messages 
AnthonyLondon
Country of residence: United Kingdom
Messages: 26


2012-12-21 18:45:37 Reply / Report message
... Talking about films, why don't we go to the cinema tonight?
 
brw1
Country of residence: United States
Messages: 151


2012-12-21 20:07:14 Reply / Report message
I think you'd use paroli de to speak of literally. Esperanto grammatically reflects romance languages and thats how they would say it.
 
Ferdinand
Cesarano

Country of residence: United States
Messages: 64


2012-12-21 20:15:26 Reply / Report message
AnthonyLondon skribis:
... Talking about films, why don't we go to the cinema tonight?
You would employ the adverbial particple in -ante.

But remember that this particple must relate to the main subject of the sentence. So, you'd have to say, "Priparolante la filmojn, mi sugestu ke ni iru ĉi-nokte al la kinejo." Note that using "priparolante" is OK only if it relates to the main subject, which is "mi".

The adverbial participle is a pretty frequent and useful tool. It can be used with any of the six particples.

* "Mi endormiĝis rigardante la filmon." ("I fell asleep while watching the film." )

* "Leginte tiun libron, mi nun pli bone komprenas la aferon." ("I understand the matter better now, having read that book." )

"Ni faras nian laboron vidate de la ĉefo." ("We do our work while being watched by the boss." )

It's worth mentioning that, in English, we often use an adverbial participle with one subject, and then use a different subject for the full sentence. For example: "My team having won, I went home content." A very frequent use of this is in "That being said..." or "That having been said...", which is then followed by a clause with a different subject. "That being said, I think..."

We can't do this in Esperanto. We'd have to rework those sentences into some other form.
 
AnthonyLondon
Country of residence: United Kingdom
Messages: 26


2012-12-21 20:56:11 Reply / Report message
Thanks Ferdinand. Makes sense.

Regarding
Citaĵo:
"That being said, I think..."
couldn't you say "Tio dirita, mi pensas..."
 
Ferdinand
Cesarano

Country of residence: United States
Messages: 64


2012-12-21 21:17:10 Reply / Report message
AnthonyLondon skribis:
Thanks Ferdinand. Makes sense.

Regarding
Citaĵo:
"That being said, I think..."
couldn't you say "Tio dirita, mi pensas..."
No, that won't work. You have to keep the subject the same. But in "tio (estante) dirita" / "tio dirite", the subject is "tio", while the main subject of the sentence is "mi".

You'd have to rework the sentence so that the sentence's subject "mi" is also the subject of the participle:

* "Dirinte tion, mi pensas..." = "Having said that, I think..."
 
sudanglo
Country of residence: United Kingdom
Messages: 4606


2012-12-22 11:57:04 Reply / Report message
The adverbial participle doesn't always relate to the subject of the sentence.

For example:

Kiel jam dirite, la afero ne estas tiel simpla.

Via laboro estas tute ne kontentiga, ne parolante pri la multaj tagoj kiam vi ne venis al la oficejo, cetere sen klarigo.


These uses are supported by the Tekstaro, and there may well be examples with other verbs.

It seems unnecessarily pedantic to veto Parolante pri filmoj, kiel plaĉus la vi iri al la kinejo.

As regards 'tio dirita', you could easily imagine this a truncation of longer grammatically unimpeachable phrase.

But I find myself tempted to put this in the accusative to show this is as an abreviated form, ie tion diritan.
 
sudanglo
Country of residence: United Kingdom
Messages: 4606


2012-12-22 12:16:02 Reply / Report message
Anyway, the issue can be sidestepped by using, koncerne or rilate.

Koncerne/rilate filmojn, ĉu plaĉus iri al la kinejo ĉi-vespere?

The adverb in Esperanto has a very wide application, and is not just limited to qualifying the verb. It often sets the scene - is used circumstantially.

Edit: Look at this example from the Tekstaro. It is not an isolated case.

.... akrega disputado pri la demando, ĉu germanoj, konsiderante la teruran historion, rajtas esti fieraj pri sia lando

Now who is doing the considering?
 
AnthonyLondon
Country of residence: United Kingdom
Messages: 26


2012-12-22 13:34:17 Reply / Report message
Thanks for the extra explanation.
 
brw1
Country of residence: United States
Messages: 151


2012-12-22 18:08:23 Reply / Report message
parolante that makes more sense than I guess!
 
Ferdinand
Cesarano

Country of residence: United States
Messages: 64


2012-12-24 15:50:15 Reply / Report message
Sudanglo is correct that "koncerne" or "rilate" is the best way to express the English-language idiom "talking about...".

But, those examples from the Tekstaro in which the adverbial particple doesn't relate to the sentence's subject seem to be paŭzaĵoj from someone's native language.

As Kirilo81 would no doubt point out, in Esperanto (unlike in every other language), no amount of use can ĝustigi a bad usage. Regardless of the sloppy habits that some have fallen into, we have the responsibilty to teach the novuloj according to the language's rules, so to instruct them in the correct use of the adverbial participle.

My teachers certainly emphasised this to me, well over 20 years ago. Nevertheless, this good teaching didn't stop me from making the occasional careless tiurilata error -- and, in one instance, a chronic error.

For years I had been using "estonte" as a normal adverb to mean "in future" (another usage of which examples can no doubt be found in the Tekstaro), until Espopore made me aware that I should be using "estontece" in order to avoid an improper usage of the adverbial participle.

So, I now use "estontece" as the adverb to mean "in future", such as in "Mi esperos iam estontece viziti lin"; and I use "estonte" only as an adverbial participle, such as in "Estonte hejme, mi ekkontentiĝis", which we'd say in English as something like "Being about to get home, I started to feel good." (Translation highly nelaŭvorta.)

(And the same thing goes for the participial noun "estonto", which must name a person, as all participial nouns do. An "estonto" is "someone who will be (will exist)" in future, just as an "estanto" is someone currently existing. Thanks here again to Espopore for this
atentigo.)

The most importan point here is that, in Esperanto, unlike in all other languages, there is no such thing as being pedantic. Other languages evolve freely based on people's usages; and what are called the "rules" of those languages are simply descriptions of people's usages. By contrast, only Esperanto has rules that do not describe usage but are meant actually to govern and regulate it.

Getting our minds around this fact can be difficult, even for experienced Esperanto-users, because this sort of obeemo towards a set of rules would be absurd in any other language. But this is the lifeblood of Esperanto; and we Esperanto-users must alkutmiĝi to this mindset, no matter how strange it would be if applied to any other language.

The charge of "pedantry" makes no sense in the context of Esperanto; such a charge is an artefact of thinking in (and thinking about) one's native language. What would be a stifling pedantry in the context of the ethnic languages is a life-giving force of coherence in Esperanto.

Page 1 (of 1)
New post

Subscribe to the thread